Curse

Cacheelma · Feb 26, 2008, 03:19 PM // 15:19

And 45sec recharge?

*must remember what Shuuda said*

Redfeather1975 · Feb 26, 2008, 03:22 PM // 15:22

Yeah, AP has a long recharge, but in PvE, it never stopped me.
Mobs died every 3 seconds.
pew, pew, pew. So cheap it were.
I remember my friend commenting on how incredibly cheap I was in Nightfall.

I've even used it with Arcane Mimicry in a Vanguard build a few times. So cheap!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZAsz-Ht-a0

Sha Noran · Feb 26, 2008, 03:30 PM // 15:30

Zinger, some of your trolling you can get away with, but this is such a blatantly incorrect thread topic that I don't understand why it's not locked already. There are a lot of things wrong with Guild Wars, but trying to suggest that the dual-profession system is broken is completely ridiculous.

If you are using builds that do not take advantage of your secondary profession, you are probably bad at Guild Wars. Period.

EDIT: Also, it seems that a great number of people are trying to make M:TG references who have obviously never played/do not understand that game's mechanics. Please stop, you're embarrassing yourself.

Ouchie · Feb 26, 2008, 03:35 PM // 15:35

My two cents worth

to be able to capture all elites for the titles

LightningHell · Feb 26, 2008, 03:59 PM // 15:59

The dual profession of Guild Wars allow for much more interesting bars and variety of play instead of if you focused on one.

If it were a monoprofessional game, it would be a whole lot less interesting.

Btw, in comparison to Magic: the Gathering:

Quote:

(in MtG, usuing a second color takes no more effort than only using one)

Surely you're joking. You can't pay the cost of Wrath of God using Forests. I daresay there's an even larger commitment in Magic: the Gathering, since you might have a bad draw; apart from weighing the cards in your secondary color to prospective cards in your primary color, you still have to factor in how likely you're going to get a good draw with your color spread. (Now, that isn't a problem usually, but devoting a large part of your manabase to a secondary color is a commitment imo.)

In fact, I believe GW skills are less commited to their colors, as in the case of 'no more effort' in terms of splashing. (I.e. splashing a few Disenchants, Mana Leaks or whatnot, compared to splashing skills in Guild Wars, such as using Glyph of Lesser Energy, Mending Touch, Death Pact Signet, Shock, Shield Bash, Return, and whatnot. Actually, when splashing, there is a smaller commitment in Guild Wars, as many of the abovementioned skills are used at zero-spec on a secondary, and hence having no attribute commitment.) Guild Wars has a lot more 'splash' stuff than Magic: the Gathering, that's for sure. Look at GW templates; Monk bars generally have one or two skills from their secondary that either don't require spec or have a rather low spec; Warriors only ever spec high in a secondary profession attribute for a Conjure; Dervishes and Assassins likewise. Rangers go /Mo for Mending Touch and Mending Touch alone (perhaps maybe Restful Breeze for the unorthodox). The list goes on; the only profession(s) I can think of that specs into another profession significantly with regularity is the Elementalist (and perhaps the Mesmer).

Perhaps not by coincidence, two of the three professions that commonly utilize their primary attribute to use another profession's skills is the Elementalist and Mesmer, with the Necromancer. These builds that utilize one's primary attribute to use another profession's skills can be likened to combo decks; perhaps a good analogy would be a combo deck that uses color A as a base, but requires an extensive investment in color B because card X is essential to the combo that the deck is built around.

lyra_song · Feb 26, 2008, 04:09 PM // 16:09

Paragon with Warrior shouts?

Snow Bunny · Feb 26, 2008, 04:26 PM // 16:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Paragon with Warrior shouts?

You just won the thread Lyra.

zwei2stein · Feb 26, 2008, 04:38 PM // 16:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cacheelma

And 45sec recharge?

*must remember what Shuuda said*

AP recharges itself.

Hence AP based builds can ride on recharge wave and do some serious damage.

Hoewever, i have to note that "Air of superiority" does about same thing and does not require elite slot or /A secondary.

pygar · Feb 26, 2008, 04:46 PM // 16:46

Not only do second classes in GW allow for interesting combos, and even just options so you dont get bored- the secondary class system in GW also keeps the balance issues between the classes in check.... without secondary classes the classes that were less than uber would get pushed to the wayside in favor of the classes that are imbalanced- even more so than it already happens.

Yes, you can have builds that do not utilize a second profession, and have them be functional.... but that doesn't make having a second profession worthless or silly, not by a long shot.

Bryant Again · Feb 26, 2008, 05:16 PM // 17:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

Zinger, some of your trolling you can get away with, but this is such a blatantly incorrect thread topic that I don't understand why it's not locked already. There are a lot of things wrong with Guild Wars, but trying to suggest that the dual-profession system is broken is completely ridiculous.

If you are using builds that do not take advantage of your secondary profession, you are probably bad at Guild Wars. Period.

EDIT: Also, it seems that a great number of people are trying to make M:TG references who have obviously never played/do not understand that game's mechanics. Please stop, you're embarrassing yourself.

Well someone's bitter. By the way, he in no way said he wasn't using them, just was wondering why ANet wanted to add the capability in the first place.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

If it were a monoprofessional game, it would be a whole lot less interesting.

Depends on how the game is made. I'm sure the game could be just as fun and interesting if it was tailored to be monoprofessional.

Solas · Feb 26, 2008, 05:27 PM // 17:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

ArenaNet said that the secondary skill system was originally implemented to parallel Magic: The Gathering and its tendency to feature deck using two colors of mana. However, unlike MtG, in GW you need to invest a lot of resources into a secondary profession, specifically attribute points and skill slots. (in MtG, usuing a second color takes no more effort than only using one)

99% of the builds I make (and also see) use only skills from the Primary profession. You only have 7-8 skill slots; you have to make them count.

It was somewhat innovative back in 2005, but now, a secondary profession merely justifies bad builds and exploitive class interaction.

How do you kill a warlock?

Dispatch a raid group and wait for him to go AFK

I believe secondaries were prof in to stop one class being supremly imba to others, so more varietion and with a cap of 12 on a secondary itsno as effective as primary.

Redfeather1975 · Feb 26, 2008, 05:29 PM // 17:29

Hey, I used to play a warlock in WoW.
They weren't that cheap.

<_<

Fear, fear, fear, fear, fear.

Bryant Again · Feb 26, 2008, 05:35 PM // 17:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Talach_Ninneed

How do you kill a warlock?

Dispatch a raid group and wait for him to go AFK

Or make a change to a vital skill that invalidates all of our gear >:I

Quote:

Originally Posted by Talach_Ninneed

I believe secondaries were prof in to stop one class being supremly imba to others, so more varietion and with a cap of 12 on a secondary itsno as effective as primary.

The only problem is that it makes some profession combinations too powerful. I feel that it puts too much on the table for ANet to balance.

Striken7 · Feb 26, 2008, 05:56 PM // 17:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

By the way, he in no way said he wasn't using them...

Yes, he did.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

99% of the builds I make (and also see) use only skills from the Primary profession

That pretty much defines fail.

Bryant Again · Feb 26, 2008, 06:01 PM // 18:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Striken7

Yes, he did.

Well I stand corrected.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Striken7

That pretty much defines fail.

Only if the build sucks. And Zinger doesn't suck at this game.

Numa Pompilius · Feb 26, 2008, 06:06 PM // 18:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cacheelma

You know, personally I have a feeling that Anet isn't going to keep "secondary profession" system in GW2. ---

I'm not saying it's a good idea. But, you see, they're removing so many stuff we like in GW1 from GW2 because they think it's too complicated.

Yep.

The irony is that the analysis is wrong. The reason FOTM builds crop up isn't that the skills are too complex for ANet to balance, but that the environment the skills are used in is too static. Even if 90% of all skills were removed and we were reduced to using Ursan-like static skillbars (as I think we will), there will still always be one single optimal build for any given environment. It's simply the nature of the beast.

The only way to change that is to increase the complexity of the environment and add randomness. Random levels, random mobs, with random skills.

MtG has a very primitive way of attempting to level the playingfield this way, by having the cards drawn at random from a deck. If the cards were not drawn that way there'd be a single optimal deck and a single optimal order of drawing the cards.

As for GW2, personally I would prefer that individual player skill was made more important than skill selection. Ie, that a ranger skilled at aiming with the bow should always beat a ranger who was useless at aiming. Yes, I'm talking FPS style skill. That would make the whole FOTM thing completely irrelevant.

Painbringer · Feb 26, 2008, 06:54 PM // 18:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

ArenaNet said that the secondary skill system was originally implemented to parallel Magic: The Gathering and its tendency to feature deck using two colors of mana. However, unlike MtG, in GW you need to invest a lot of resources into a secondary profession, specifically attribute points and skill slots. (in MtG, usuing a second color takes no more effort than only using one)

But in magic you need to have the mana played out before you can use a skill. Thats your investment. No casting a red card if all you have is black on the table

The Little Viking · Feb 26, 2008, 11:10 PM // 23:10

I dont use a second profession. on any charicter...and i have a lot.. all but derv, paragon and assassin. none use a second. dont even carry a rez except on my monk. (and never do I put a rez signet on a hero, those i give a second..mostly monk so they can carry a real rez.)

Dallcingi · Feb 26, 2008, 11:19 PM // 23:19

Second profession is there for strategic purposes... unlike wow where u have like 10000 skills on ur screen at once lol.

Sleeper Service · Feb 26, 2008, 11:38 PM // 23:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

(...)
Btw, in comparison to Magic: the Gathering:

Surely you're joking. You can't pay the cost of Wrath of God using Forests. I daresay there's an even larger commitment in Magic: the Gathering, since you might have a bad draw; apart from weighing the cards in your secondary color to prospective cards in your primary color, you still have to factor in how likely you're going to get a good draw with your color spread. (Now, that isn't a problem usually, but devoting a large part of your manabase to a secondary color is a commitment imo.)

In fact, I believe GW skills are less commited to their colors, as in the case of 'no more effort' in terms of splashing. (I.e. splashing a few Disenchants, Mana Leaks or whatnot, compared to splashing skills in Guild Wars, such as using Glyph of Lesser Energy, Mending Touch, Death Pact Signet, Shock, Shield Bash, Return, and whatnot. Actually, when splashing, there is a smaller commitment in Guild Wars, as many of the abovementioned skills are used at zero-spec on a secondary, and hence having no attribute commitment.) Guild Wars has a lot more 'splash' stuff than Magic: the Gathering, that's for sure. Look at GW templates; Monk bars generally have one or two skills from their secondary that either don't require spec or have a rather low spec; Warriors only ever spec high in a secondary profession attribute for a Conjure; Dervishes and Assassins likewise. Rangers go /Mo for Mending Touch and Mending Touch alone (perhaps maybe Restful Breeze for the unorthodox). The list goes on; the only profession(s) I can think of that specs into another profession significantly with regularity is the Elementalist (and perhaps the Mesmer).

Perhaps not by coincidence, two of the three professions that commonly utilize their primary attribute to use another profession's skills is the Elementalist and Mesmer, with the Necromancer. These builds that utilize one's primary attribute to use another profession's skills can be likened to combo decks; perhaps a good analogy would be a combo deck that uses color A as a base, but requires an extensive investment in color B because card X is essential to the combo that the deck is built around.

Comparing MTG to GW is a bit problematic because in GW you only have one way of "winning", and that is through killing the opposition. In MTG its not all about bringing life down to 0.

In respect to your post my analysis tends to the exact opposite of yours.

yes generally you have a smaller commitment to "splashing" in GW but why is that the case?

For me the answer lies in the fact that unlike MTG, if i put a few points into the healing line of my W/Mo (for a easy example) ill NEVER be able to heal myself correctly anyways, i might be able to heal myself a little but its not going to be comparable to a Mo/W speced in healing. Now thats obvious yes i know but lets look at the MTG example.

If i create a Green/White deck and the white is in there solely to gain life, then if i have the mana and the spell is in my hand the effectiveness of my "healing spell" will still give me a 100% efficiency return.

Therefore (like you said) "splashing" or using a secondary profession in GW works with very specific low requirement skills under particular conditions, they work because you don't need to invest heavily into those attribute lines to get a worthwhile return. Utility spells are the best example i guess.

The point that I'm trying to make is that secondary professions in GW have their uses, but in teamplay or in the presence of heroes it becomes disappointing in terms of comparative effectiveness.

but yes it has its uses, just not like MTG even though its inspired from it, shame really imo.